Frosty's Problem

[S u N f r O s t ~]

I need to talk for a bit about something...please take what I say with a grain of salt. It's been a tough couple of days/weeks and I'm at the end of the line here. I'm not asking for immediate change or anything...I just want thoughts and opinions on something. And I am not looking for a fight. I am definitely complaining about something, though please don't judge me too harshly.

And what am I complaining about? Workouts. Let me explain.

In order to be uber successful here now, it appears you need a workout very often for each of your horses. Especially for big races. Now, for big races I can understand, but then you run into an inevitable problem - uh oh. No time to write a workout for this. Might as well scratch out my very impressive horse with nine previous completed workouts because I won't have a recent one for the race and therefore don't stand a chance of winning. Yeah, I'm referring to Innocent Passion. Five wins in ten starts, loads of completed workout. She should have had a chance. But I recognized, as well as two other people, that she wouldn't have a chance to win or maintain her record in the Racing Post Trophy despite her impressive credentials. Why? No recent workout.

Let's say that if I continue to be as busy as I am, which trust me I probably will be. You might as well tell me now not to enter the horses I have, with ten plus previous workouts or great records, into big races anymore because I don't have the time to write new workouts for them. Apparently, the past time put into them doesn't count when it comes down to the table in races. I understand it's competition. I understand this is how the way things are - trust me, I've been here long enough. But it's not until now that I truly understand the fatal flaw present in this way of judging things. Essentially, it boils down to this; only those people with the most time will be able to gain success here. Those that are suffering from time constraints fail.

I understand our methods. But I also understand that this cannot happen. Kirsty, I'm going to use you as an example for a second...hope you don't mind. Why did Kirsten leave? Because she couldn't keep up with the horses getting a workout every race. Has this behavior changed since she came back? In my opinion, not really. Is it fair to those of us with no time? Definitely not. In fact, I can already see how much my horses with five or so workouts this year are already hurting in the races. It's just...not fair. I don't know how to explain it. I've put hours into these horses and apparently the fact that I can't put as much time into them now makes them a lesser horse.

I'm sorry guys. I hate complaining and I've rarely done it as publicly as this. But I need this off my chest. I can't deal with that. I want your opinions or suggestions on this before I lose my mind. I've placed years into my stable. I don't want it to be ruined just because I'm killing myself for the sake of my future in school. Please, critique me, yell at me, do whatever at me. Just acknowledge what I'm saying. That's all I'm asking.

[Snowflake]

I completely agree Frosty. It's a pain to have to do workouts for every horse for nearly every race and it's extremely time consuming. It's preventing us from keeping on time and it's always been a problem. And I have a much bigger stable than most, too ><

We've already limited specific workouts to one per race.. so how to you propose we limit them further? Maybe no more than 12 per horse per year?

[*Ripley*]

I am in agreement with you Frosty. I too am running into major issues and with so many horses to work out for individual races, I am forced to skip race weeks. I also scratched Cross My Heart from the Racing Post Trophy because a) it was a monster race and clearly either Nightshade or Blue Me Away was going to win and b) I also did not have time for one of my usual monster workouts to give her a boost.

I thought everyone had agreed on The Wire that one workout within the month was plenty for races. I'm tired of individual workouts putting people ahead of the game in races. It curbs my writing style by having to mention other peoples horses and the race layout. That should only matter in the big races i.e. The Triple Crown, The Breeders Cup, The Seasonal Cups and all of the rest, you know what they are.

I wrote all of the workouts for my horses for personal enjoyment. When Frozen Motion has 12 workouts behind him in year twelve, I want them to be reread. We should not be penalized for doing past work. I was just thinking about this earlier today Frosty and I am very glad you brought it up, even though it's under depressingly frustrating circumstances.

Edit: Snowy limiting workouts is going to stink for those that actually like to write workouts. I come to GHF and The Wire to write and get enjoyment out of it. It's how I deal with stress. I think rather we should get rid of workouts geared for individual races totally unless they are the big races I just mentioned.

I never wrote individual race workouts for El Sol del Mar, Royal Assault or Native Flame. They were recent workouts that had one sentence about the race plan.

[Deleted]

<sup>We need a solution. I like writing workouts, so my horses usually have a lot. My problem is that if I don't have time or muse, I can't work my horses, which is why I ultimately scratch them (knowing they will do bad). This is part of the reason I am leasing out my horses, saying that they NEED to be worked before races.

I think that we should be able to have a workout in perhaps the last two weeks (real life) that can be for as many races in that time period, excluding MAJOR RACES. My horses don't win unless I have worked them a gagillion times... Something I can't always do, which is why I scratch horses, which ultimately has my horses not racing. It's something I can't really avoid now that I'm in school. :/ Races should be judged by quality not quantity.</sup>

[Dante]

Firstly, I'd like to say this:

Oh, I feel your pain, Frosty. I have 4 midterms in the coming week alone, and plenty of papers. As it is, I'm at a point where I may only put App into races, since I could manage one horse. My horses, like everyones, I suspect are suffering for lack of works, even with supposedly "amazing" seasons getting them booted from Stakes.

Secondly, I would like to ask people to read my post the whole way through, and read it all. I know it's long. But do it. The reason is that I have two different ideas, and two different rationals behind them.

On workout caps:
I think putting a cap on workouts is one of the WORST things we could do for a horse, especially 3yos that often have dramatic changes in grade, and need that extra boost. A limit, even if only on specific workouts, can end grade-shifting, and lower the competition to one or two select horses. However, I'm not going to type a zillion pages on why I dislike that right now, since I have my own ideas.

Now, you see, I'm the opposite of Ripley. I prefer writing race-specific works - that's part of how I like to shape workouts, but that's my writing style. I know it means more work for me, however, and so throwing out unspecifics is useful.

OPTION ONE: DEFINED AND CONQUERED
1. The first problem here is we need to define what is a "major race".
My proposed definition:

I. A race with a "*" in the title.
II. A race series that has a subset within the week
III. Any "week 5" races.
IV. Any maiden race with seven or more entrants
V. Any races that have a RL equivalent

Explanation:
I. This is, what is currently in the rules as a "major race"
II. The seasonal cups or the seaspray cups are an example of this, where there's multiple races all falling under the umbrella of the "Summer Cup" or what have you.
III. There's no wk5 races except the stable face off, and sometimes the BC gets it's own week. Either way, wk5 races are something special.
IV. If they're willing to put in the effort in such a huge field (fields that big are only seen in the early months of the year), I say it would be totally fine, albeit for maidens only, since there's no real win count and whatnot to help.
V. The Triple Crown, and such races.

I feel that's a fair definition. It's not super-strict, but it is easily definable.

If the race falls out of one of those terms, you can't write a specific workout for it. The end. Post the definition into the rules, perhaps remove * from some of the races, and it's all good.

The pros here are easy to see given Frosty's lament, and everyone's seeming thoughts. However, it's not exactly new-user friendly, and caters to what we, as established members, want.

OPTION TWO: DEVALUE THE WORKOUT

The other option is to simply carry on with what we're doing. Now before you scream I'm on something, please consider the following:

We're the ones judging the races, we are the ones creating and then complaining about the problem!

The solution is to judge differently, then, huh? If we made the mold, we can break it. That is NOT meant to offend anyone, not by any means, but it does hold some water.

I would be more than happy to help pen up (albeit not in the next couple weeks, thanks to university) a guide on how to judge and I'm sure plenty of others would. New members would probably like the guide as well.

Beyond that, everyone can carry on as is workout wise, but not judging wise. Instead of more regulation - which would mean workouts could become more valuable solely because there are suddenly exacting times at which you can do them, and of course then everyone will do them then (so if you don't, you're doubly stuck), why not we just judge in a way that devalues the workout?

[*Ripley*]

-loves Dante's wonderfully long and wonderfully crafted post- I like the first option better as an experienced user because it is already defined and what not. People do have different styles and this does really help people mesh to GHF easily. And a newer member could always ask another member. I've provided a couple tips to Sammy on occasions knowing she would need an extra boost against such tough and competitive members. New members will help to sustain GHF and we shouldn't scare them off.

I would be all for a guide on how people should judge. But then how far can we go to tell people how to judge? I too have been wondering about devaluing workouts in general. It was suggested over at The Wire. But how would we devalue it? Some people write better quantitatively or qualitatively. How do we devalue it?

In my judging I go off of personality and the workout. A record does not make a great horse in my opinion because some horses frankly are not great runners. When they need the extra boost it comes from their personality and workout. In fact, more often than not I don't even look at the previous record of horses. In my case I want the horse to come alive for me. I want the race to play out in my head, for just the exact winner. Devaluing a workout might not be great for my style of judging. To me it would simply be like randomizing in some situations.

So I think we need to figure out how people are judging. And then go from there.

Things people could judge on:

• workouts
  
• personality
  
• pedigree [more for prospects and maidens]
  
• record
  
• reputation around the track
  
• page organization [has come into the mind a time or two]
  
• realistic or not?
  

[Dante]

In regards to that judging idea, I don't think that's a good one either.

While I agree all of those things are valid points a judge should look for, the more formulaic we get, the bigger the problem. I remember when we got judged on GHF via form and numbers, right down to the name of the horse. It was awful, and I preferred randomized results.

DEVALUING THE WORKOUT

How we judge in regards to other factors has nothing to do with devaluing the workout! Watch!

Let me explain, and Ripley, Imma use you as an example, simply because of your judging style - not that there's anything wrong with it.

For a judge who likes workouts as an indicator, and likes the feel of the horse, all that judge has to do is be less date-oriented. Was it done in the last RL month? It was? Great. Carry on as you are!

Like was mentioned by Krown and on TW, we just relax about dates.

Also, if there's a race specific workout, it needs, NEEDS, to be defined as 'beatable' by a generic workout (barring numbers in I, III and V in my definition). Translate a specific workout into a greater chance of being consistent or something, but not a 100% guarantee of a 1-3 placing.

The key here is that devaluing the workout does not equate to putting more emphasis on other things, but relaxing the standards on the workouts, which is the core of Frost's complaint - it's too workout heavy.

If we judge other things more, we risk going back to where we were when consistancy > workouts, and everyone was in a flap about that, too. It's devaluing one thing, not inflating others, that we need.

[Deleted]

The pressure to do workouts for every race is very high right now, and like many others I am struggling because of that. However, I do feel that capping workouts is unfair - especially as we're already half way through a year and some horses are already totalling quite a few. Plus, when I have time I ENJOY writing workouts so capping it would make me more likely to quit.

I don't judge heavily on workouts, except in the bigger races or when things are so close I need something to separate the top horses. But I do think that effort should not be ignored, either. Especially with poorly performing horses as it is one of the few ways to actually help them to improve.

We need to find a balance between the two, that doesn't punish those who don't have time but also doesn't completely disregard the effort made by those who find the time.

[Cavallo]

Okay to some degree I understand what Alexia is saying, but when you have people who are...don't take this offensively at all Alexia lol...people who are writing novels compared to say one of my usual 400 word post, the race would usually go in her favor. I understand the effort being put into her stock and I admire it, but things that also need to be taken into consideration. For instance, I work three jobs, do full-time full-18/17 credit hours of college. So when I do do workouts, it literally is the best that I can do at the time and yet....my horse will always loose to a Book long workout post.

I'm putting the best effort in and still can't ever claim wins. See my frustration here? So I am with Frosty on this. I don't think we should cap workouts. Back in the day-MHS , before I left, Workouts for races were rare. We roleplayed A LOT, but it was for the interaction with the other players, it was a true roleplayed race horse game. When there were posts for races it was, as I stated before, for big races. Workouts are fun, but I more enjoy my roleplays with Amber and Nick! LOL I think if we shifted the reason for posts this would change the entire feel of the sites.

I like the concept we have going on at TW where we judge when it comes to workouts, judging how many races have taken place since the last workout. I think there should only be big races allowed for specific races. Workouts should be allowed whenever and however, but they should be general works.

That is my suggestion because as it is...I won't be able to keep up, my stock will always loose and I'm not going to want to stay on anymore..lol

[Deleted]

See, in general those workouts aren't actually taking me long to write up - mainly because my muse SOARS before NaNoWriMo starts - it will crash within the next few weeks when the even actually gets underway.

But like everyone else, I am feeling too much pressure to gets works done every week because of how many people are judging and to be honest... It's making me stress because I know I can't do this for much longer.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

I am really happy to see that I got really constructive and understanding responses to my post. Thanks a lot guys. I couldn't ask for more

It seems that we have ruled out capping workouts. I agree with the basis of that - if somebody's got some writing muse flowing, I don't want to restrict them! I also don't think we should put additional restrictions for specific workouts. Instead, I agree with Dante's point of devaluing the workout. We need to step away from capping workouts and instead examine our judging styles. That is what's causing the stress in the first place, after all. Specific workouts should be weighted the same as general workouts. Our current standards are definitely too high to be realistic for everybody, it seems, who is replying to this post so far.

I found myself nodding in response to the points in Dante's post. If we were simply less date oriented, a lot of the problems would be solved. I think that one good workout in the last month, even month and a half, would be a good idea. And as for Cavvy's point, love it! I too enjoy rping our Nick and Amber stuff more often. We should step away from race workouts and the stress of maintaining competitiveness for a bit and focus more on rping for fun, as Kirsty once mentioned sometime ago. All we need to do is just change our focus.

Let's all just take the pressure off and relax a bit. If we all feel similarly here, then let's eliminate the pressure and just relax in the knowledge that we can. I know personally that Cavvy will die if she keeps working as hard as she has with Nightshade xD

[Dante]

Specific workouts should be weighted the same as general workouts. Our current standards are definitely too high to be realistic for everybody, it seems, who is replying to this post so far.

I like this.

Specific = General.

It makes my muse happy, since I prefer specifics but end up drowning in the demand that generates.

HOWEVER, IF WE DO THAT:
A specific workout must then also be "recyclable" and work for a time period - just because it mentions a race shouldn't mean it is rendered useless after the race.

The only exception to this, then, would be races (using the points from my definition) that fall under categories II, III and V, since those are pretty high profile. As well as invitationals, since those seem to be pretty prestigious. Which brings me to this:

If we use my definition for specific workouts:
Might I add a category VI or modify a category to include any invite-only races? They're so rare (one per surface per year as far as I know) so it slipped my mind, but everyone currently likes the def. by the look of things so I don't want to just swap it out of the blue. xD

[Cavallo]

Love it all!

And yes...I will die at this pace to keep Nightshade in the top XD HA!

[Kirsten Jade]

<sub>*smiles*

well this has been constructive

I like roleplaying but honestly i prefer roleplaying my characters because well... i've never actually rode a horse or been around any. i enjoy going to the races and watching horse racing but i am not actually a "horse lover" *sighs, gasps* lol. I love horse racing but think that any horse that isn't a thoroughbred racehorse is kind of... ugly... and useless. LOL (cringes and hides under desk).

My point is um... i don't know horses. That's why i have trouble with personalities and knowing how a horse acts. but i love racing.

we need to rp for FUN. in our OWN STYLES.

P.S i don't normally judge on workouts except when i feel *forced* to. honestly the picture, the organization of the page, the personality, the record, the effort into the horse and sometimes workouts are all what i judge on. A horse that has a poorly organized page and ugly picture is always going to be down in my books.</sub>

[Dante]

So more people are leaning to option 1 with some modifications? From what I read, anyways? I dunno. xD

Frosty, Snowy? Any thoughts?

[Snowflake]

I also like to do race specific workouts. I enjoy analysing the competition and such.
I think we definitely need to stop working so hard. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Workouts should only really be done before big races (Triple races, Breeder's Cup, etc. I would say the season series are not big enough to worry about doing specific works for. Other reasons why works would be done is for starting 2yos and for when a horse is struggling and needs that edge over the competition. Think back to simpler times when a horse had about one workout a year.. it still says on the morning workout board that is is recommended to work a horse at least once a year.

Honestly, we've had this conversation many times and the resolution has never lasted long, so we need to come up with some sort of rule.. maybe change the judging guidelines on workouts. How long ago should the last workout posted be for it to be considered time for a new one? I'd say probably two game months?

[Dante]

=O

Are we in agreement for once, Snowy? xD

Because it seems like we pretty well are. I'd say 1-2 game months seems fair, as long as they horse hasn't raced a million times therein. However, 1-2 game months correlates to 2 weeks - 1 month RL time, which is fair. Plus is you manage to race your horse 6 times in 2 months or something you'd probably be on enough to post more frequent works, imo. xP

As for specifics, I still stand by my definition, but I think seasonal cups could be one of these things where a recent-er general work could also stand in place of one (a 2 month old one, not so much, but a 2 week old one? yeah), but I wouldn't necessarily bar specifics on those, either.

[Deleted]

<sup>So is this in effect?

On GHF.. and The Wire?</sup>

[Snowflake]

Frosty? I don't know about everyone else, but I've been waiting for your reply

[Deleted]

I was waiting for Frosty but I will give my opinion on seasonal races:

I tend to go by how I feel about the horse I am entering and the time I have available. Some horses I am more likely to work than others to ensure they are ready - two year olds against older horses, for example. I think that a specific workout should not be necessary for these, but that a specific workout certainly shouldn't be disallowed.