Grade Three Races

[*Ripley*]

I'm trying to spread out my stock over the upcoming racing calenders at both GHF and TW. However, I keep running into this issue of lack or limited races. We have a ton of grade three races and up races. Yes, I understand that most of these are important races and that only the best should be able to run in them, but it's weakening our racing levels. We do not have that many superstar grade three horses just at this moment. While those limited races become more dominant in the schedule there is a steady decrease in the amount of races offered to grade fives and fours.

The majority of the horses on this website are grade fives and fours. These horses are the back bone of Green Horse Fields and The Wire. It takes a while to even approach grade three and most of it is because of a lack of races available to lower level horses.

I understand that it is difficult to set up a racing calender and that too many races will cause problems with judges and what not. But I am finding it difficult to find places for my four year old and three year old grade fives because the races are becoming more selective to two year old horses and grade threes. And even for three year olds as well. Three year olds not pointing for the Triple Crown, Tiara or Turf Triple Crown do not have as many opportunities to run and move up to grade three unless they run on The Wire at a steady rate.

My suggestion would be to open up the Memorial races to grade fours, races that are open to grade fives should be open to grade fours as well. In my own personal opinion we should put less significance on the grades of horses when judging and in scheduling races. It weakens the level of competition and variation of horses in the races and chases away people because of just a grade.

And the four year old and up races like the These Old Bones Stakes, Who's More Youthful and any other races like those should be open to grade fours at least. We shouldn't limit who can run so severely because already the target group seems to be very select.

The best modeled group of races to me is the Breeder's Cup and The Stable Face Off. They are races open to everyone, while still maintaining specific boundaries that make entering easy. Excuse my rant, but this has always been my opinion since I started years ago.

I bet Sillenia, Worldbreaker, Alluring Assault, Flashy Wings and Sunset Crusade are tired of running against the same old competition. I used to find those open races or grade one races interesting because there was such a wide variety and anyone could win, but when Sillenia is getting victories over only one single horse in a race it kind of puts a damper on her whole record. Plus, in real life Sillenia would be finding it challenging to maintain her amazing form over such an extended period of time. [Sorry for picking on you Frosty, but Sillenia was an easy example for proving my point]

So I'll bullet what I said, simply because my rant made it hard to follow even for me:

• Open 4 year old and ^ races to grade fours at least
  
• The Memorial Races should be open races.
  
• Races specific to grade five as the year goes on should be also open to grade four to keep variation in competition.
  
• Put less significance on grades because even in real life a horse with only two starts can and will run against grade one company depending on his talent and capabilities.
  
• Do away with Grade Three and Grade Two races as there are plenty of opportunities to move up when running in open company.
  

[S u N f r O s t ~]

Hmm. You bring up a good point. And I like your ideas of variation as well. I'm going to go and change the calendar around COMPLETELY. When I'm done I'll let you know and you can go through it and tell me what you think

[*Ripley*]

^{You're kidding me? That worked!? Woot! Awesome! And no problem}

[Dante]

While I agree with Ripley to some extent here. The older, lower-grade horses get a little bit hooped (well, a lot sometimes) when it comes to chances to race, and that needs to be fixed. The calendar is from days when, on GHF, a lot of horses retired at 4, but that's no longer the case, especially with HOF material horses and foundation studs.

However, I also think races should still be streamed, BUT, and this is a large but, having opportunities open for advancement. For example, opening more races is good, but I also like to see G3, G2, and G1 races meant to be, well "battles of the giants", so to speak. They're fun to watch (ie, the Invitational) even if you have no horses in it. The trouble is mixing the two.

Opening too many races gives horses the chance, yes, but I'll pick on Sillenia myself. Sillenia vs Wildly Natural = Wildly Natural wins, a fair portion of the time. Not every time, no, but I'm simplifying to make something of a point. If we open the floodgates too much, you're going to end up with some G1's dominating, and defeating the others, also ruining their chances at advancement.

My advice here is to strike a compromise - be careful how far you go, in other words.

I still think streamed races are a good idea, simply because they can give horses a chance to advance the grades. The trick is giving the lower grades (less than G3) an equal chance to get up there, so we can have that varied competition. If you go too far one way, you'll see similar trends, is all I'm saying, or you might see, say Sillenia up against a horse with a single win in many starts. Not saying that horse couldn't win, but the chances are far slimmer, than, for example, a more accomplished horse of a higher grade.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that we are not real life. Grade here is important to help us organize ourselves. While I agree it is not a be-all, end all, we do need to keep some focus on it, as it's our main gauge of a horse's performance. While a G5 could be more stellar than a G1 here, yes, it is a decent gauge.

ie, "That race is filled with G2 racers. Are you sure you want to enter a maiden there?"
The maiden could be amazingly talented, but at the same time, grade (and thus experience, especially in this example) would play a factor in a maiden vs g2 race.

Though in the end of the day, most of this I feel will be a result of trial-and-error to get things worked out in this case. xD

[S u N f r O s t ~]

I was thinking of your points when I went through the calendars and I modified accordingly, I hope. I made the really really big races G3+ and the biggest one I have is open to G2s and G1s only, as we tend to never get all-G1 fields. The majority of G5 races have been opened to G4s as well, with the exception of a couple. I have in some cases opened races to G4s and G3s, and in others to all those grades. In many cases, I do hope the G1s don't face the G5s very often. You'll have to take a look at the schedule and let me know if I went a bit too far.

Generally, I'm going for larger fields here. I hope it opens up some opportunities while preventing domination, though of course we won't know until we go through this trial period. I'll invite everybody to go through the schedule and tell me what they see that needs improving.

[Deleted]

Loving the changes to the racing calendar so far, Frosty, and very interested in seeing how this changes the fields. Thanks Ripley and Dante for your feedback. I thought I would post in here, also, with another piece of racing calendar feedback.

Most of us agree that entering two year olds against older fields can be risky because even the talented juveniles will hit an issue of experience. It doesn't mean they cant win, but it does lower their chances significantly. Maiden and G5 2yos are very well catered to in the racing calendar, however once a juvenile hits G4 they are very much in a difficult predicament.

I'll use Blue Me Away as an example... He's had an amazing start to his career, with 4 wins in 4 starts. Experience wise, he is fine for going up against his own age group but would have an issue against older horses. As he is now Grade Four, however, his opportunities to race have drastically reduced. I can either enter him against older, much more experienced horses, or I can enter him in only a handful more races throughout the year. To counter this, why don't we open the G5 juvenile races to G5+ to cater for those horses which have done so well?

I am now wary of entering him in races he is applicable for, just because his experience is likely to lead to bad results in G4 races.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

Thanks for the feedback Alexia I see your point there and I'm willing to go ahead and open up a couple juvenile-only races to G5+ if nobody objects?

Also, I think you would be able to enter Blue in the G5+G4 races open to all grades with little difficulty.

There aren't a whole lot of juvenile-only races in the calendar - does anybody think we should make a bit more of those? Actually, on second thought, I see a fair few of open and M+ juvenile races on the calendar. Nevertheless, do you think we need some more?

[Dante]

Okay. This is kinda of not what you asked for completely, but I feel this is important.

I think what we need to do (or you lot on the staff team, and yes, this is a lot of work, so maybe don't do it all, but consider something like it : P) is sit down and completely dissect the racing calendar. We can have opinions all we want, but we need to see hard numbers before we end up unbalancing the race calendar by overcompensation,

What I mean by this is take it apart, not month-by-month, but by grade and whatnot by the side. So, like:

Dante's a nut stake 8F T 2yo Open (March)
Black Security Run 12F D G5 - G3 (June)

And organize them in increasing grade for the races that have no age specifications, then do so for all the 2yo races, the 3yo exclusives, and the 4yo+ exclusives.

This will allow you to get a look at HOW MANY there are per year for certain age categories, firstly, as well as how many per year are for certain ages, and then you can see, by increasing grade, how many of then are for what grades, and so on.

If you really want to be anal, you can then further dissect them to Turf/Dirt and distance groups, but I don't recommend that right now. xP

THEN, we can see where the issues are, how many of what we have going, and then possibly WHY everything is happening this way. For example, we flood races early on that are G5 and maiden, then they drop to nothing. Would it make more sense to have a steadier number through the year? Are there too many G1 races late in the year, and not enough early on, for those who reached high grades the year before? Are 3yo races too common in the middle of the year, but nonexistent later? And so on.

Adding more races will help, but we need to know when and where to add them, and what they should look like, otherwise we risked skewering things the other way.


AS FOR THE QUESTION AT HAND...

I ran into the same issue with Royal Assassin as Alexia is having. However, I feel G4 should be the last grade that's open to 2yos and 2yos only (barring open races). Otherwise we end up with super dominant 2yos in the pool. Plus, once a horse reaches a G3 level, it can hold its own if the owner if expressly wise about entering, and frankly, juvvie G3+ races would be so empty I'd expect to see walkovers, which are basically....useless. I mean, there's no point even recording those, so. : P

[S u N f r O s t ~]

Your solution, while a lot of work, would allow us to identify areas that need work...

I am willing to do it if only to see what the numbers are - and I know that us staffers are all very busy, so I'm willing to do it myself if I have to - if there are no objections? Does anybody else think that this is a good idea and we should go through with it?

And as for your last paragraph Dante - hmm. I'm going to keep those 2yo races open to G3s as well if only to vary the fields for that. I think we should see how the current system works before refining it any further. There have been a lot of changes to the race calendar this year and I think we need to sit back and see how it works in conjunction with TW races before making any further changes.

[Snowflake]

What I've done in the past is just ask everyone if they feel there are enough races for each grade on each distance and surface, and take note of entry numbers. I don't feel it is necessary to sort through them if we do this