Monthly Races

[S u N f r O s t ~]

Hi guys

I think it would be a good idea if we worked on coming up with a couple of guidelines for the monthly stakes races so that what happened this month doesn't happen again. I think that the way we've phrased the qualifications for the race is a bit subjective and we need to specifically define just what type of horse is acceptable in the monthly stakes race. Sarah, what are your thoughts? What do you want to see in horses in those races?

[S u N f r O s t ~]

*bumps* Just realized we never really discussed this xD

[Snowflake]

i think my note in 'Racing and Awards' is pretty clear..

If your horse is doing well in high graded races, please refrain from entering it in the monthly stakes races. These races are meant for horses who are struggling in the big races.

I mean, I wouldn't enter Sunset Crusade but I might enter Silverianna or Euphorion. Grade fives are free to enter, whether they are doing well or not. Grade fours are kind of in between, and grade three, grade two and grade ones should not enter if they're winning.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

In Ianna's case, you could argue that a filly who won two legs of the Triple Tiara definitely has no business being in a monthly stakes race for struggling horses. I just think that the definition of a "struggling horse" is a bit subjective. For example, I'm confused as to whether Sugar Jayde could be considered a struggling horse. She's grade three, and she's won a bit, but she hasn't won too much. Does that make her ineligible for monthly races?

[Snowflake]

That was a year ago Frost I mean at the present time, Ianna is not doing well in higher grade fields. So sick of her coming 4th. It's so annoying ><
Sugar Jayde is doing just fine, in my opinion.

[Deleted]

I think what Frosty means, Snowy, is that what one person classes as struggling another person would not. As such, the definition needs to be made more precise, so that we don't have issues with horses being entered which are outside the boundaries for the race because of a differing opinion.

Also, I feel that one good result against a strong field shouldn't necessarily mean they aren't eligible - it may have just been a one off.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

Oct 16, 2012 10:51:45 GMT -5 @alexia said:

I think what Frosty means, Snowy, is that what one person classes as struggling another person would not. As such, the definition needs to be made more precise, so that we don't have issues with horses being entered which are outside the boundaries for the race because of a differing opinion.

Also, I feel that one good result against a strong field shouldn't necessarily mean they aren't eligible - it may have just been a one off.

Exactly. Thank you for phrasing that more eloquently than I could Alexia

[Snowflake]

Okay, well, what do you think a struggling horse would be to be eligible?

[Deleted]

I'd say that the definition definitely needs to centre on current year results, as horses can have downward turns.

"The monthly stakes races are for horses that are classed as struggling. To fit into this criteria, they must have fewer than 3 wins in major races this season or have placed outside of the top three in their last 3 major races."

I just used three as an example here, however this definition shows what might be classed as a struggling horse while allowing for downward turns during the season. It's just a suggestion, though, I don't know what you guys think.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

It depends on what we define major race as. My guess is races with a * in the title?

[Deleted]

Yes, Frosty. * races are what I tend to define as "major" but then I suppose that is also a matter of opinion...

[Snowflake]

I think we all have our own opinions on which races are truly big races. Triple Crown and Breeder's Cup would probably top everyone's list though. The memorial series, season series aren't really big to me. I'm glad the memorials were open to G4+. maybe we should even open them to G5+. Everyone should get to race to remember a HOF inductee!

Open to public discussion. What does everyone think on this topic?

[Dante]

Honestly? I don't think Memorial Stakes should be open to G5+, it makes them not so special. To honor an HoFer should be an emulation of that horse; a powerhouse race. It isn't meant, imo, to be open to everyone.

If it's made a lower graded race, it should be totally fair to say right out that they're dog-eat-dog and if you choose to enter a one win G5, know flat-out that they're going to be put up against horses with G3-G1 status.

Keep in mind, if you filter races down too low, you lose the "value" of a lot of races, and personally, I think it's fun to have stakes dedicated to HoFers run by horses of calibre, not every old Bob; and I say with with only a single horse out of the G4 ranking. Sometimes, yes, I am glad for the "filter down" effects of opening races. Others, no, I'm not, and this is one of those. I'd be in favour of making the Memorial Stakes G3+ myself, if it's getting changed anywhere. Either that or we need more races of high calibre, or the high-preforming G3+ (outside of special races such as the TC, which is only open to 3yos) crowd never will get a chance to run.

The grading scale is not just a little decoration, and it seems once you go into the G3 range, it doesn't "unlock" much more in terms of the SIM itself, because everything (barring Invitationals -which are a different sort of animal - and seasonal cups) is already open.

As for the monthly stakes, "doing well" is subjective at best. My opinion here would be NOT to boot on first infraction, and just add "this horse is too good for the monthly stakes". If that horse crops up again, in the same year, without a major downturn in performance, then boot, but only then, since - using my Lady Ophelia as an example - I honestly didn't think she was that high preforming to be booted. If I'd known she would be considered that way, I'd have entered her elsewhere. Because it's subjective, its very likely someone could enter a horse and that horse perhaps not belonging there, but there's no ill-intention involved.

[*Ripley*]

<sub>The problem with the Memorial Races I believe, is that they are so spread out over the year. The number of them is just going to increase and soon we'll have too many per month. Also in the beginning of the seasons Jan-June, there are really not that many upper level horses. This is why it seems important to keep the early races open to grade fours. I'm with Dante. I don't believe grade fives should be allowed in the memorial races. People should be smart enough not to throw their ponies to the sharks. I think the early memorial races should be geared toward grade fours and up. As the year goes on, close it down to grade three and up.

Or, I don't know if you noticed Snowy, but I added in a ton of races for our turf fillies over at The Wire. Those races are geared toward preparing out turf fillies for the turf sprint and the filly and mare turf in the Breeders Cup. It is actually a series pitting our three year old fillies to their older counterparts. Maybe we should make the memorial races a series, instead of just individual races.

I know people aren't going to like this idea, but hear me out. I wish we could close off grade one horses from the Memorial series. Because they already have had opportunities to run in the races, especially if they are four and five years old. Our grade ones typically can run in their own series like the These Old Bones Races and Dubai World Cup, Star Festival and what not.

The memorial "series" I am proposing would be a series to help our horses move up from grade four to grade three to grade two level and up until they break into grade one. Grade Ones have plenty of races to run in. They don't need these memorial stakes. Once a horse breaks grade one, they should move up. It would a be graduating process of sorts. I think the Memorial "series" would then need to be placed closer together because for some reason they just some far apart.

There was also a time that our seasonal cups were considered important races. Now I feel like they no longer are. I feel like they are geared to helping our horses that need to move up. Maybe we should cut the seasonal cup races down to the maidens, grade fives and grade fours division.

And then we can develop NEW races, on the very same card as the seasonal cups, that are considered for HORSE OF THE YEAR, ie for grade threes, grade twos and grade ones. We could base them again off of American, Australian or European races, doesn't matter.

Face it: horses that are only grade fours and grade fives from beginning of the season to the end of the season aren't going for the big categories unless: A) they are juveniles and B) they are aiming for the graded awards. So the seasonal cups matter for them. They don't matter or are irrelevant for our grade threes, twos and ones now. So lets make important races for our top rungs.

Edit: For the monthly races I would say that we all know which horses are struggling and which are not. Like Snowy said, Silverianna, Euphorion, Wild Kiss and Fire Dancer all had their downs or are still currently in their down tune in racing. We know who the stars are. If grade two and grade one horses are not doing well in their divisions, ie only one-three wins on the season especially by mid-season, they should be allowed to compete in the monthly races. We have to support our stars or they will be forced into early retirement just because of a funk.

Now, if that is the case. I think grade fours like Lady Ophelia and Wild Kiss when she was a grade four, should not be kicked out of the monthly races. They have not done as much just yet, even if they have four wins on the season. They still have not done as much as Euphorion, Silverianna. I think we need to base the monthly races off of the YEARS performance to some respect, like someone else said. A grade four horse who has been doing well in Year Twelve, and is on the upswing has as much chance as the upper grades that are dropping in class. The monthly races are a drop in class or a class relief for grade one, two and three horses that need them. They are basically put on equal footing as our upswinging grade fours. That is how we approach this I believe. Yes it is subjective, but a judge can always get another's opinion, as long as that person does not have a horse in the race.</sub>

[Dante]

I know people aren't going to like this idea, but hear me out. I wish we could close off grade one horses from the Memorial series. Because they already have had opportunities to run in the races, especially if they are four and five years old. Our grade ones typically can run in their own series like the These Old Bones Races and Dubai World Cup, Star Festival and what not.

This is not true. It is, perhaps, for the dual-surfaced horses, but it's halfway through the year and I have a hard time finding races for Executioner's Apprentice, and I rarely find him in a field that isn't just Silenia and no one else. He runs 7-10 on turf, which you'd think I'd find him more. But I can't. Meanwhile, I can find plenty of the rest of my crew, who are lower grades. Yes, G1 races should be fewer than G5 races. But when I have issues finding a race to the point if I wonder if he'll race at all in the next couple months, there's something not quite right.

IF we're going to close off races to G1s, there need to be a LOT more races for the G3+ (G1 especially) community, and more variety. Plus, if you close the memorial races, what about 3yo G1's? Most of the G1 races you bring up are meant for the 4yo+ crowd. If you're going to try keep meddling with races (you're being all of us, not you, Ripley, and myself included here xD) and do this, you may need to redo the entire calendar.

Honestly? I want more high-level races, and I don't want more filtering down, or horses will get G3 and go nowhere fast. I'm not so much concerned about HOW it happens - though I want seasonal and memorial races still left for the G3+ crowd, simply to round out the cups. Not only this, but you subtract the higher ranks from those cups and suddenly their value as race series hit the ditch, imo.

[Deleted]

I don't think cutting Grade Ones out of the memorial races is the answer here because, as Dante pointed out, a lot of the high grade races are geared for 4yo+ and even then races for the right distance/surface can be difficult to find so taking the memorials out of the equation for them just seems like some of the top horses will barely run.

The season cups I like, I always have. They may not be the biggest races on the calendar but they still have a lot of value, in my opinion, and I think pulling the higher grade races would deplete that value. Plus, a lot of the time I feel that my G3s & G2s would not stand a chance against the G1s that they would have to face if we were to make a series along the lines that you have described. Take Flawed Princess, as an example. I love entering her in the season races, but I never enter her in bigger races - why? Her record just doesn't match up to that level of competition. Still, I was very glad to see her reach G3. Will she be going for HOTY? No.

It's going to be impossible to make the racing calendar suit everyone. We have to ensure that there are enough races for all the horses - an increasing pressure given the increasing foal crops - as well as getting the balance between distances, grades and ages correct. It is an ongoing project.

However - I do feel that we should encourage the high-end 3yos to match up against their older counterparts.

[Snowflake]

However - I do feel that we should encourage the high-end 3yos to match up against their older counterparts.

They will, in the Breeder's Cup if not sooner xD

I don't agree with cutting out G1's from Memorial races, or from season series.
What I mean by reviewing the calendar is making sure we have enough races on each surface and distance for each grade. Especially since the number of active racehorses is going to grow each year. And we want variety in the fields. I have definitely noticed the same horses facing the same horses over and over again, which we don't want. It gets boring We need more races for everyone, grade ones included. Though i think we're set on prospect and maidens for now. What I'm getting at really is having multiple race opportunities for each grade on each surface per week, at different distances. so one week there could be races at 5 and 10 furlongs, and the next 8 and 12 furlongs, for just g5's or whatever.

[S u N f r O s t ~]

I believe the Memorial Races are not the things we should be changing right now. We should focus on the overall structure of the racing schedule. One of the problems, I think, with the schedule is that all of the major races appear to be clustered at the end of the year, especially the major turf ones. We need to diversify. Also, hmm. I generally race Sillenia at nine to twelve on the turf and I've had no problems finding her races...then again, App is at seven to ten so perhaps those options are more limited for you Dante. That could be a problem we need to rectify. As for there not being enough older turf grade ones running Sill's and App's range...we can't really change that.

The Season Series should stay the same. They're minor-major races.

The ultimate thing we have to accept here is that because the distance and surface preferences as well as grades vary for horses in each category, it is essentially impossible to make the race schedule tailored exactly to that volatile group. So naturally, we are going to have some problem with the races each year. The question is, do we change the schedule to accommodate the problem every year or just stick it out? Should we risk adding too many races to the calendar and have diminished fields as a result? If there's always a race to fit a horse's needs every week, we're going to end up encouraging over-racing and that will happen more often. If we no longer care about the over-racing thing, speak up so we know not to mark down for it. But if it is something we still care about and don't like to see, then we shouldn't worry if there's a horse that doesn't get to race for three weeks or something due to lack of races (not saying that this is the case, this is just an example). It'd be like a natural break interwoven into the season.

I think we need to make a list of what you guys think is lacking in the calendar right now so we have something a bit more clear to discuss. If we're talking the racing calendar, we need to know what specific issues we're having with it. For varying the fields, what do you suggest? Simply having more races will not completely solve this problem, I think.